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Angie Watson-Hajjem:Hello, Alameda. Welcome to the Island City Beat podcast. I'm your host, Angie Watson-Hajjem. Back in 2020, I saw a documentary called Reuniting America, which had a profound and lasting impact on my life. Documentary was produced by a nonprofit group called Braver Angels.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:And in the film, the producers brought together voters after the twenty sixteen election, both Trump voters and Clinton voters, for a weekend of dialoguing, of talking, listening, sharing, bridge building, gaining common ground. It was an amazing, really amazing experience to see. And really, for me, it made me think, first of all, we need to do this all the time, putting people together who have different viewpoints. But it gave me hope of what we could do in this country to help depolarize our country. And today, I'm going to be talking about the important work of Braver Angels in helping to create spaces where people who have different political views can come together and talk respectfully.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Joining me in this conversation are two brave members of Braver Angels, Paul Norris and Leslie Lopato So we just talked about that, right, Leslie? So Paul has been a Braver Angel leader since 2018 when he became the first California state coordinator.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:He has had many roles in Braver Angels, including serving as a moderator and advisor advisor, and director of Braver Angels debate program. Leslie has also been a very active member of Braver Angels, serving in roles such as the Braver Angels Alliance co chair, debate chair, moderator, and she's also a work shop organizer facilitator. And so with that, I want to welcome Paul and Leslie to the show. Thank you both for being part of our podcast. It's wonderful to be with you to talk about your work that you do at Braver Angels.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Now, as I mentioned, my first introduction of Braver Angels was that movie that I saw, Reuniting America. And it had such a lasting impression on me. And I know that Braver Angels has so many offerings. You guys do workshops and skill trainings and forums and debates. And we're going to go more into all your offerings in a moment.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:But first, I would love for you to give us a background story of Braver Angel. How did this organization come to be? Whose great idea was it to form Braver Angels?
Leslie Lopato:You want to do that, Paul, or would you like me to?
Paul Norris:Well, I'll take a shot at it. So as far as Braver Angels itself, after Trump was elected, David Blankenhorn, was kind of, looking around wondering what happened. And he spoke to Bill Dougherty. And the three of them organized the first Braver Angels meeting, which was in, I think, New Lebanon, Ohio, pulling together, I forget if it was six or eight people on each side. And they made it a weekend event and it was a success.
Paul Norris:And you know, there were some very powerful friendships that arose out of that So, that's how Braver Angels started. My introduction to Braver Angels was actually at Leslie's house. The very first San Francisco meeting. She hosted it. So we essentially joined at almost exactly the same time.
Paul Norris:And I remember telling Leslie at the time, well, I think you and I are going to be the ones who actually make this thing happen here. And she just kind of gave me the look, but I turned out to be right. And on that note, let me hand it off to my conversation partner, Leslie. What would you like to add?
Leslie Lopato:Well, among the three people who started out on this journey in 2016, David Blankenhorn, Bill Daugherty, and David Lapp. Of those three, Bill is a marriage and family therapy professor at the University of Minnesota. And so, he was the one who initially designed the first interaction, the first workshop that happened in Ohio. And they followed that up with a bus tour, where a group of reds and blues drove around Ohio and stopped at towns and held the workshops. And the response the people that they had at that first workshop were actually they were not centrists.
Leslie Lopato:They a number of them were really quite out there in the And political I think that they were all surprised by how well they got along and how enlightening it was to actually listen to somebody who disagrees with you that much.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Yeah, and I think about what we're interested in is that you are not trying to get people to change their mind. People have their feelings. They have their viewpoints. They have experiences, and that's respected. You just want be able to kind of understand where they're coming from.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:You're just trying to get their sense of how they see the world. Not trying to change their role view to yours, but just really allowing them to really share their viewpoints with you without that kind of judgment, and you need to change. You're wrong. It feels like that's so far away from what Braver Angels does.
Leslie Lopato:That is true, and that certainly is part of our Braver Angels way. But it's also true that when you really listen with an open mind to somebody with a different viewpoint, you might actually change something about your viewpoint. Or you might moderate your viewpoint, even if in small ways. So, I try when I'm talking to people about it not to be too simplistic about, oh, you know, we're not trying to get anybody to change their minds. Everybody kind of wants to change somebody's mind a little.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:of course, yes.
Leslie Lopato:But still allow them to believe what they believe and be who they are.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Yeah, yeah. And tell me a little bit about because I know going on your website, you guys have so many really cool things. You have these one on one conversations. You do workshops. You have book discussions and debates and forums.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:So give us a view of some of the things that people might be able to step into, what they might be able to experience if they came to your website and some of the events that you put on?
Paul Norris:Yeah well, are so there was a time when I could say I was involved in every single Braver Angels program. That is absolutely, I think, impossible at this point. There are so many offerings. I mean, geez, there's like music. We didn't mention that, but we have music contests and people end up creating songs that we end up using for events.
Paul Norris:So I suppose the best advice I could give is I could name what I consider to be our primary offerings. But then I could say, you know, go to the website and, you know, look at the events, look at what we do, and, you know, see what matches, you know, what works for you. I mean, you know, I would say our primary things are, you know, the workshops and the debate program.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Yeah.
Paul Norris:But, you know, I mean, there's also, there's Braver Politics, there's Braver Faith, and I mean, you know, I quite frankly have to admit, you know, that some of the programs really know very little about and I've never been involved in.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:There's so many there on your website. It's amazing. Yeah. Well, let's go talk a little bit about the workshops, because I actually participated in a couple of workshops years ago. And I would love for you to explain to our listeners what happens in a workshop, especially a workshop where you're really working on trying to get people to be open, to depolarize, like to use that word sometimes.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:What goes on? What do those workshops look like?
Leslie Lopato:Yeah, I can talk a little about that. I mean, think the workshops do two main things. One is they give you actually a real life experience. For instance, in a red blue workshop, you actually can really talk to people on the other side, whatever the other side may be from you. And you find out that they are different than you thought they were.
Leslie Lopato:So that's one thing. And what makes that able to occur, what makes that able to work is a very structured format for a workshop. So there, for instance, with the Red Blue workshop, there are sections of it in which people get together either all as reds or all as blues, or then later in the workshop as a mixed group. And they can they're encouraged to look at their stereotypes of the other side, and what they think the other side thinks about them, and how that's wrong, and most importantly, what kernels of truth are there. So we actually ask people to question their own single mindedness or belief limitations, as well as looking at what they think about the other side.
Leslie Lopato:The other part of workshops that other thing workshops do is they teach skills. So they can teach you how to listen actively, how to talk, how to kind of open a door in a conversation rather than slamming it shut, how to respond to what somebody says in very specific ways. So I guess that's And those are a number of different workshops. There are workshops on depolarizing within, how to look at the ways in which what you do and what you say with people in your own group, how that can increase or worsen polarization, their skills for talking among families about families and politics.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Brilliant. Yeah.
Leslie Lopato:The first one I ever did was a pre Thanksgiving family and politics workshop. There are things about Workshops on how to disagree better, how to disagree accurately with somebody else and without hostility. So I'll stop there.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:That's incredible.
Paul Norris:If I could just add a couple of things. So the moderators are there to provide safety and to provide structure. And that's really important. And something that I've come to understand as time goes on is most of what goes on in Braver Angels is based on something called contact theory. And contact theory is the idea, you know, that if you get people to actually interact with each other, know, prejudice and fear and hatred will diminish and hopefully disappear.
Paul Norris:But you know, contact theory it's also clear that contact theory means you have to have structure Contact per se is not safe and can frequently make things worse. Contact with structure is what can actually be helpful.
Leslie Lopato:Yeah, I agree.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:And in your workshops, do you try to have equal number of conservatives and liberals, reds, blues? Do you try to make it pretty even?
Leslie Lopato:Depends on the workshop. So some workshops have to be balanced and some don't. If you're teaching, if you're doing a red blue workshop, yes, it has to be balanced red and blue, you know, maybe within one or two off. If you're doing something that's a skills based workshop, it doesn't necessarily have to be balanced because everybody can participate from whatever perspective they come in with.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Yeah. There was a Democratic senator. I don't remember his name. He'd been around for a long time. He was saying that back in the '70s, even the '80s, he said that Republicans and Democrats could disagree fiercely on the House floor, in the chamber of the Senate.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:And then they would go and have a cocktail afterwards. And that doesn't happen anymore. I just feel like in the last decade or two, we have just got to the point where we just can't even be in the same room together without screaming at each other. I'm just wondering, love to get your thoughts, Leslie and Paul, as to what happened. How do we become so polarized, so divided when it comes to our politics?
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Where do you think that comes from?
Paul Norris:Well, have an opinion I could share on that. So I was at Berkeley in the 60s and I was very much a proponent of what was going on. I considered myself a Berkeley radical at the time. But I remember something that just seemed a little off to me at the time, which was non negotiable demands, and how often that was put forward. And to me, that was the start of something.
Paul Norris:And, you know but I rather than blame it all on the left, I mean, there's also plenty of history before that, of strike breakers and violence against reasonable requests. So, you know, so it really comes from both sides. But something, you know, something started coming to a head then. And so, you know, somehow media have for the most part become partisans rather than reporters. And the internet certainly has something to do with that.
Paul Norris:You know, anonymity and you know, anonymous interaction or interaction that is not anonymous but isn't face to face. You know, a lot of us will say something really stupid in an Email and send it off and say something that we would never say to somebody's face.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Yeah.
Leslie Lopato:I would also say, I think, and this isn't my idea, that there's been such a conflating of identity and social grouping with political beliefs and practice that people have become increasingly segregated in all parts of their lives. So even to the extent that they tend to live in different neighborhoods, go to different schools, different places of worship. And I think that that's equally true for legislators. They are just as vulnerable to this as anyone else. And the media has become so caught up in clickbait where the most outrageous anxiety or anger provoking headline gets the most clicks that it tends to promote that kind of
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Emerges.
Leslie Lopato:Polarization. Mhmm.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Know that, you know, you're talking about braver politics, and this this kind of work needs to be in DC. Right?
Angie Watson-Hajjem:I mean, we need to bring this to our senators or representatives. Have you guys had any success in talking to our political leaders about the work and getting them at least interested and maybe taking part in it? Or what has that been like?
Paul Norris:Well, are places in the country, like New Hampshire is a great example. I think they've made incredible progress. I say they, I suppose I could say we, incredible progress with the legislators in New Hampshire, the state legislators. Quite for I'll be honest, you know, I haven't even tried in the Bay Area. I Mean, is so totally under leftist control.
Paul Norris:You know, maybe it's something, you know, maybe we should try it just to see what happens. See if there would be any interest whatsoever. But my immediate prejudiced reaction is when the left has total control as they do in San Francisco, why would they want to talk to anybody? And I'm sure there are analogous places on the other side.
Leslie Lopato:I'm sorry. Yeah, I was going to say a couple of things about that. I think Bill Daugherty, for instance, did did testify in front of Congress. There is a group in Congress called the Problem Solvers Caucus that has a more braver angels or bipartisan flare to it. I mean, would like to be more bipartisan.
Leslie Lopato:They did one of our colleagues, Beth Mallow, did a workshop. She and and another Braver Angel did a workshop with the New Hampshire legislators on managing difficult conversations. In other words, how you talk to someone with whom you have basic disagreements. And I think they found it extremely helpful. I think even in San Francisco, we could say that it's certainly blue dominated, but that doesn't mean that everybody is always on the same page about everything.
Leslie Lopato:I think there are very profound disagreements among subgroups of people in San Francisco, even subgroups of the left, not just between the left and the right. And I think there, I would like us as Braver Angels in the Bay Area to think about whether we might play a role in some of that. And we have talked about whether we want to start in San Francisco, for instance, trying to approach some of our supervisors and talk with them about what kinds of conflicts they are dealing with or their staff are dealing with and see whether there's a role that we could play in trying to moderate that.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Yeah. You guys are also trying to get curriculum in the schools of bringing Braver Angels to our students. What does that look like? What is that for I can say if a teacher, a professor wanted to bring this to their students, what does that curriculum look like?
Paul Norris:So I can address, like, part of that. I mean, something that I have done as part of the ambassador program is Maxine Shrogan works on this with me. And we have what is basically a forty five minute to hour and a half presentation and Q and A. And, you know, so it has several parts. But for me, the best parts is one, Maxime and I will do a conversation in front of everybody, letting the audience pick the topic.
Paul Norris:And that definitely seems to be an icebreaker. And then the other thing is taking Q and A. And we have done that at a couple of high schools
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Oh, wow.
Paul Norris:In San Francisco. They it in both high schools, it was done and I guess, like, most high schools have, a noon meeting once a week of the entire student body. So we got good feedback on that. And Mary Thomas Valens, does a lot of work, with education, and students. And quite frankly, you know, I'm not really plugged into everything that she does, but she's a great resource.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Glad to hear some people were receptive to this work. That's great to hear. Go on, Leslie.
Leslie Lopato:Yeah. There is a section of the debate team that focuses on colleges and universities and setting up Braver Angels debates in colleges. So that's one thing that we've tried to do. I mean, I I guess at the moment, it's still a fantasy of, again, trying to engage students about issues that are important to them in their school and helping them find ways to talk about those issues and who's on which side of those issues. In other words, a sort of understanding of civic participation that includes a Braver Angel style interaction, but I don't think that one's happened yet. That's still dream.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Yeah, that's great. Let me ask you just personally, Paul and Leslie, how has been your experience as a Braver Angels? How has that impacted your personal life?
Paul Norris:So I guess I would say It has actually given me a lot of peace. I after I finished my graduate program to become a psychotherapist, quite frankly, I actually think there were parts of the program that were frankly abusive. At least abusive for me. And so actually talking to people from an equitable position who disagree with me has been incredibly valuable. And I would say, you know, I have come to really appreciate Leslie, actually.
Paul Norris:Leslie has actually influenced me significantly. And you know, when I think of people on the left, you know, let's face it, you know, there are lunatics on both sides. And if you want to find, you know, lunatics to convince you that the other side is all lunatics, there's plenty of opportunity to do that. But there's also opportunity to engage with reasonable, sensible people who just happen to have a little different value structure than you do and different life experience.
Paul Norris:And to recognize that, you know what? If I had grown up in their home and I had their life experiences, I might very well be, I would very likely believe exactly what they do. So, it's been incredibly enriching, calming, energizing. You know, it's I really enjoy doing this in this latter retired part of my life and I could talk about for ages but I think I should let my conversation partner say something
Angie Watson-Hajjem:I just think that that's such a great compliment that you gave to Leslie that you know, she's been such a big influence on your life. Did you know that Leslie?
Leslie Lopato:Paul and I have influenced each other. And I mean, one of the things that we are generally pretty good at is we can joke with each other and tease each other a bit, which I always find I find humor very important in trying to bridge differences when it's judiciously applied. But, you know, what I always say to people is I'm the only person in my social circle who knows and has any regular conversations with conservatives. And what it has done for me is similar to what it has done for Paul, aside from introducing me to some really quite remarkable people of all persuasions across the country. It has given me a little bit more hope and I think peace is a good word in what or my my side is a really difficult period that we're going through now.
Leslie Lopato:You know, where there are things that are going on that I really truly disagree with in profound ways. But it helps when you know that not all the people on the other side are raving lunatics, as Paul said. It really helps when you can recognize that there are people who for a number of reasons see things differently than you do, or may see the same problems, but see different solutions as being more beneficial. Helps when you know that they are reasonable people. There are lots of reasonable people on the other side.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Yeah. What tips would you have for someone listening to this broadcast? And they're thinking, yeah, this person in my life who I love very much, and I'm just having such a very difficult time with their politics and just sitting down and talking to them. What would you say to them? They really have a real desire to bridge the gap, but just don't know how to go about doing that.
Paul Norris:I would say two things. One, humility is incredibly important. And of course, it's not like you can just put on your humility jacket and all of a sudden it's there. But, you know, just the recognition that there's something bigger in this world than politics. And, you know, to recognize, you know, for a lot of people, politics is religion.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:uh huh.
Paul Norris:And I think it's a pretty crappy religion, frankly. It's a religion that divides rather than a religion that unites people. So so I, you know, I mean, get some kind of do something spiritual. Find something spiritual. Find something in that enlarges your life, rather than just focusing on politics.
Paul Norris:And the second thing I would say is find a structured way to talk to who you disagree with so you don't end up throwing, you know, memes and epithets at each other. So, that's it. Think Something deeper, something larger, maybe call it spiritual, and get some kind of structured way to talk to each other.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:You can attend a workshop by Braver Angels. Yes.
Leslie Lopato:You know, I guess what I would add to that is for people, you know, when you're in a family dinner and stuff starts going on like that, the first thing to do is take a couple of deep breaths and just try to lower the negative energy in the room. And then the other thing is to try to talk to people one on one, even in your family to start with. It's very hard to do this in a group without major structure. But if you're talking to someone one on one, the most useful thing that you can do, I think, is to be curious. To try to be curious about how they arrived where they are.
Leslie Lopato:Yeah. Like, to just ask somebody, what led you to to pick that to make that choice, to take that viewpoint? How did that how did that arise for you? And then shut up and listen for a little while. And then you can sort of say, Okay, this is what I hear you saying.
Leslie Lopato:And did I get that right? And if you didn't get it right, then ask them to correct you. And if you did get it right, then say, Okay, so I hear you. I'd like to tell you a little bit about how I got to where I got. Are you okay with that?
Leslie Lopato:Are you willing to listen? And get permission to share that. And, you know, that's the that's a very simple kind of active listening interchange that can just lower the emotional temperature of some of these. When people feel they're being listened to or heard, they feel less like they need to fight with you to be heard.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Now, River Angels is a national organization. You guys have alliances all over the country. I know in Alameda, used to be a Braver Angels Alliance that's not active anymore, but people can still get involved locally. I mean, tell us a little about some of the local alliances that people can tap into.
Leslie Lopato:Okay, we have several alliances in the Bay Area. There's one in Silicon Valley, there's one in that sort of at the moment day Berkeley San Francisco Alliance, and there's a very active one in Sonoma. And interestingly, they tend to do different kinds of things. So the Sonoma Alliance tends to focus on in person workshops. The Berkeley San Francisco Alliance does Zoom conversations once a month that anybody can come to.
Leslie Lopato:If you go to the website and look for the National Alliances, you can actually find a mailing address, an email address for someone who can get you on the mailing list for our alliances. We have what's called a super alliance, which means that we all get together to try to coordinate and plan events. We're actually going to do, I think, a major event called Bridging the Bay in October. I believe the date will be October 8, and there will be some things coming out about that on our mailing list.
Leslie Lopato:If you go to braverangels.org, you can become a member. It's only $12 for all year. Wow, that is all great. But it's a bargain. It's a bargain.
Leslie Lopato:And you can also get on a mailing list so that you will receive all these announcements. And we are actually in the process of trying to rejuvenate the San Francisco Alliance, which had leadership changes and kind of lapsed a few years, a couple of years back during the pandemic. So there are people doing a lot of very interesting stuff, some of which is online and thus accessible to anybody in from from anywhere around the bay, some of which is in person, a little more local, and Silicon Valley does some of both, I think.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:As we end our conversations, it's been great, Leslie and Paul, what would you like to say? What would you like to leave this interview sharing with our listeners?
Paul Norris:I think one thing I would add is there are lots of partisans, people who are very partisan. In fact, quite frankly, I'm very partisan. But one of the things that I think is really important is to provide a level playing field in our events. So, you know, you get to express your opinion forcibly and as well as you can express it but at the right time and you know, when that's what's being called for And so that's one of the things that I think is important. So you don't have, you know, you can be a strong partisan and still get value from this.
Paul Norris:You can be a strong partisan and still respect other people who see things differently than you do.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Yeah. Leslie, any last thoughts?
Leslie Lopato:Yeah. I mean, I get a lot of comments from friends and family along the lines of, how can you talk to those people? Or it's great that you're doing that, but I wouldn't wanna do that. And what I usually say to them is, well, what do you think is the alternative? What do you think we should do?
Leslie Lopato:Fight endlessly and take up arms? I think the rewards of doing this kind of work are so great that it actually, even in its difficult moments, is fun and interesting and will make you feel better about the possibilities of the future in this country, which right now I think is very important.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Yeah, absolutely. I think anyone who has any love, I think, for this country probably needs to look at Braver Angels because we are in some really desperate times here in our country, and the polarization is just getting worse and worse. And I would just really encourage anyone that's listening to go to braverangels.org, look at all the offerings. They do so many things. One of the things I actually participated in was a one on one.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:I had that with Paul. We had two of them. And it was just really great to get to know Paul. We were very different politically, but to see him and his humanity, for him to see me in mine and to see our connection, our commonality, it was really beautiful. And so I really encourage people to check it.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:It's hard. I mean, takes courage to be a brave angel. It really does. But let's say, it's so worth it. What else are we going to do?
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Take up arms. It's not going get us anywhere. So I'll get off my soapbox. But I just think you guys are doing amazing work. I just thank you so much for coming on our podcast and sharing this really important movement of Braver Angels.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:And I wish you both the very best as you continue in this journey with this organization. Thank you so much.
Leslie Lopato:Thank you for having us.
Paul Norris:Thank you.
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Thank you. And thank you for listening out there. I hope that you enjoyed this show. I hope you come back and join us next time for another edition of the Island City Beat podcast. Until then, I am your host, Angie Watson-Hajjem
Angie Watson-Hajjem:Take care. Goodbye.